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	<title>Comments on: The Escapist on faith and philosophy in games</title>
	<atom:link href="http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/</link>
	<description>A blog on the intersection of religious belief and games.</description>
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		<title>By: Nate</title>
		<link>http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-181</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-181</guid>
		<description>Wow, those reviews really are bad. I guess I&#039;m not particularly surprised; it seems about ballpark for a cheap, rushed franchise tie-in game, which is the feeling most of the Left Behind material gives me. And when you look at how many even big-name franchise games with huge budgets, turn out mediocre at best, and spectacular embarassments at worst, the odds weren&#039;t kind.

I&#039;d still like to see a full-on nonviolent-confrontation simulator, rather than a hybrid wargame-with-persuasion-mechanic. Or a post-disaster repair-infrastructure game. Or a unite-warring-factions social simulator. Or a SimCity with gift economics. Or something with elements of all of the above, and a decent story.

Can we get a Katrina: The Aftermath game? Or Iraq: Deescalation? 

I&#039;d mention the TV show Jericho, since it&#039;s begging for a game conversion, only it&#039;s really really bad too...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, those reviews really are bad. I guess I&#8217;m not particularly surprised; it seems about ballpark for a cheap, rushed franchise tie-in game, which is the feeling most of the Left Behind material gives me. And when you look at how many even big-name franchise games with huge budgets, turn out mediocre at best, and spectacular embarassments at worst, the odds weren&#8217;t kind.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d still like to see a full-on nonviolent-confrontation simulator, rather than a hybrid wargame-with-persuasion-mechanic. Or a post-disaster repair-infrastructure game. Or a unite-warring-factions social simulator. Or a SimCity with gift economics. Or something with elements of all of the above, and a decent story.</p>
<p>Can we get a Katrina: The Aftermath game? Or Iraq: Deescalation? </p>
<p>I&#8217;d mention the TV show Jericho, since it&#8217;s begging for a game conversion, only it&#8217;s really really bad too&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: joshg</title>
		<link>http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-165</link>
		<dc:creator>joshg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 17:12:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-165</guid>
		<description>Yep, it&#039;s been out for a few months now.  Non-religious press have given mediocre-to-poor reviews overall, but that&#039;s largely based on the game&#039;s implementation and technical flaws.  I looked at the game&#039;s demo and commented on some of the ways it reflects faith issues within its game play a few posts ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, it&#8217;s been out for a few months now.  Non-religious press have given mediocre-to-poor reviews overall, but that&#8217;s largely based on the game&#8217;s implementation and technical flaws.  I looked at the game&#8217;s demo and commented on some of the ways it reflects faith issues within its game play a few posts ago.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate</title>
		<link>http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-163</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 03:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-163</guid>
		<description>&quot;I think that their eschatology is hokey, but I thought that it might make a fun(ny) game. It’s too bad that it didn’t work out.&quot;

Has the game been released yet?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I think that their eschatology is hokey, but I thought that it might make a fun(ny) game. It’s too bad that it didn’t work out.&#8221;</p>
<p>Has the game been released yet?</p>
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		<title>By: Karl</title>
		<link>http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-156</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 18:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-156</guid>
		<description>I followed your Escapist post to get here.  I&#039;ve skimmed a number of your posts and like what you are working towards.  

I&#039;ve often wondered if it would be possible to reveal a new way to conceive of the world through games by doing various kinds of world modeling.  However, my conclusion thus far is that gaming is tuned to particular play patterns that seem to work best in the medium, usually simplistic things like running around and killing people.  Until game AI&#039;s develop human-like intelligence and communication, I don&#039;t think that games will do what I am imagining.  In contrast, I think that a book can carry out more sophisticated paradigm modeling and do it more easily.  So, I&#039;m a bit of a pessimist but I&#039;m hoping for someone to prove me wrong.

As to Christians creating meaningful games, I think that it&#039;s hard to do because most Christian organizations are pretty anal about communicating their message to the point where it harms the game design.  The game developer needs a vision and they also need freedom to create.  It&#039;s hard to do that when they need to continually check to ensure that the design lines up with the statement of faith of the organization and worry whether the game will offend their Christian supporters.  Under such conditions, the best they can hope for is a game that Christians inside the culture will enjoy.  There won&#039;t be acceptance from the larger culture unless there is more freedom inside the game.

For what it&#039;s worth, I&#039;m glad that the Left Behind game was made.  I like it when people try new things.  I don&#039;t know the game aside from reading articles, but it seemed like they really tried.  I think that their eschatology is hokey, but I thought that it might make a fun(ny) game.  It&#039;s too bad that it didn&#039;t work out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I followed your Escapist post to get here.  I&#8217;ve skimmed a number of your posts and like what you are working towards.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve often wondered if it would be possible to reveal a new way to conceive of the world through games by doing various kinds of world modeling.  However, my conclusion thus far is that gaming is tuned to particular play patterns that seem to work best in the medium, usually simplistic things like running around and killing people.  Until game AI&#8217;s develop human-like intelligence and communication, I don&#8217;t think that games will do what I am imagining.  In contrast, I think that a book can carry out more sophisticated paradigm modeling and do it more easily.  So, I&#8217;m a bit of a pessimist but I&#8217;m hoping for someone to prove me wrong.</p>
<p>As to Christians creating meaningful games, I think that it&#8217;s hard to do because most Christian organizations are pretty anal about communicating their message to the point where it harms the game design.  The game developer needs a vision and they also need freedom to create.  It&#8217;s hard to do that when they need to continually check to ensure that the design lines up with the statement of faith of the organization and worry whether the game will offend their Christian supporters.  Under such conditions, the best they can hope for is a game that Christians inside the culture will enjoy.  There won&#8217;t be acceptance from the larger culture unless there is more freedom inside the game.</p>
<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, I&#8217;m glad that the Left Behind game was made.  I like it when people try new things.  I don&#8217;t know the game aside from reading articles, but it seemed like they really tried.  I think that their eschatology is hokey, but I thought that it might make a fun(ny) game.  It&#8217;s too bad that it didn&#8217;t work out.</p>
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		<title>By: joshg</title>
		<link>http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-155</link>
		<dc:creator>joshg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 17:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-155</guid>
		<description>I should also mention that Jesus&#039; response to the devil&#039;s third temptation is probably one of the more misused and misunderstood verses in evangelical Christianity.  When he responded with, &quot;It says: &#039;Do not put the Lord your God to the test,&#039;&quot; he was quoting from Deuteronomy 6:16 which is speaking about not testing God&#039;s patience by worshipping other gods.  So really I think it reads as either &quot;That would be trying God&#039;s patience by leading the people into false worship,&quot; or &quot;You&#039;re trying my patience with this nonsense, so scram already,&quot; depending on how you feel like relating Jesus&#039; divinity into the interpretation. =)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should also mention that Jesus&#8217; response to the devil&#8217;s third temptation is probably one of the more misused and misunderstood verses in evangelical Christianity.  When he responded with, &#8220;It says: &#8216;Do not put the Lord your God to the test,&#8217;&#8221; he was quoting from Deuteronomy 6:16 which is speaking about not testing God&#8217;s patience by worshipping other gods.  So really I think it reads as either &#8220;That would be trying God&#8217;s patience by leading the people into false worship,&#8221; or &#8220;You&#8217;re trying my patience with this nonsense, so scram already,&#8221; depending on how you feel like relating Jesus&#8217; divinity into the interpretation. =)</p>
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		<title>By: joshg</title>
		<link>http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-154</link>
		<dc:creator>joshg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 17:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-154</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;6Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies[a]? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don&#039;t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Luke+12&amp;submit=Lookup&amp;display_option=columns&amp;niv=yes&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Luke 12:6-7&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yeah, so I think it&#039;s fair for someone to acknowledge a belief that God helped them achieve a victory - even a sports or game victory.  I&#039;m a bit jaded towards the single-winner, many-losers mentality of competitive sports, though, so I&#039;m liable to agree with Blancato&#039;s closing remark:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Does Jesus care if we win the big game? Probably not; if anything, he cares how we play the game.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Your point about incorporating doubt into Christian games being seen as &#039;yielding to temptation&#039; is essentially what Crigger sees as evangelical Christianity&#039;s standard viewpoint as well.  The difference is that she sees this as unnecessary and getting in the way of a true portrayal of a deep faith.

I would tend to agree, although maybe setting the two things up as opposing each other isn&#039;t necessary.  After all, look again at the story of Job.  He didn&#039;t have to yield to temptation to be put into a situation where his faith was challenged - God put him in that situation.  Perhaps we can be designing games that avoid the &#039;business transaction&#039; model of spirituality, and instead create a situation where even a player acting morally within the game world is thrust into situations where their faith is questioned.

I also don&#039;t think doubt and crisis of faith is the only mechanism worth exploring to portray faith within games.  There are many questions of &quot;why?&quot; and &quot;how?&quot; that are worth exploring which are more about digging into the wisdom that a faith offers to come to a deeper understanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>6Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies[a]? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don&#8217;t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.<br />
<a href="http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Luke+12&amp;submit=Lookup&amp;display_option=columns&amp;niv=yes" rel="nofollow"> Luke 12:6-7</a>
</p></blockquote>
<p>Yeah, so I think it&#8217;s fair for someone to acknowledge a belief that God helped them achieve a victory &#8211; even a sports or game victory.  I&#8217;m a bit jaded towards the single-winner, many-losers mentality of competitive sports, though, so I&#8217;m liable to agree with Blancato&#8217;s closing remark:</p>
<blockquote><p>Does Jesus care if we win the big game? Probably not; if anything, he cares how we play the game.</p></blockquote>
<p>Your point about incorporating doubt into Christian games being seen as &#8216;yielding to temptation&#8217; is essentially what Crigger sees as evangelical Christianity&#8217;s standard viewpoint as well.  The difference is that she sees this as unnecessary and getting in the way of a true portrayal of a deep faith.</p>
<p>I would tend to agree, although maybe setting the two things up as opposing each other isn&#8217;t necessary.  After all, look again at the story of Job.  He didn&#8217;t have to yield to temptation to be put into a situation where his faith was challenged &#8211; God put him in that situation.  Perhaps we can be designing games that avoid the &#8216;business transaction&#8217; model of spirituality, and instead create a situation where even a player acting morally within the game world is thrust into situations where their faith is questioned.</p>
<p>I also don&#8217;t think doubt and crisis of faith is the only mechanism worth exploring to portray faith within games.  There are many questions of &#8220;why?&#8221; and &#8220;how?&#8221; that are worth exploring which are more about digging into the wisdom that a faith offers to come to a deeper understanding.</p>
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		<title>By: Khurram Ahmed</title>
		<link>http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-150</link>
		<dc:creator>Khurram Ahmed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 05:40:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-150</guid>
		<description>The question at the crux, I believe, is one that has bothered theologians for millennia. 

Do you - does the game designer, does the game player - believe that God has knowledge and control of particulars.  I think a passage in the Bible goes something like, &#039;God knows when a single hair on your head moves&#039;. 

If someone works with that as part of their core beliefs, then they must surely believe that God plays a role when a Hail Mary pass is thrown. God can surely give an athlete the strength, the clarity of purpose and mental fortitude for a moment, i.e., inspire the athlete.

And let&#039;s not forget the name Hail Mary has some religious connotations. 

Anyway, my point is this.  For Christian game designer designing Christian games, to incorporate doubt and crises of faith, would be seen as yielding to temptation.

In conjunction, let&#039;s not forget what Jesus&#039; response was when Satan tried to tempt him a second time by suggesting that Jesus throw himself off the temple so the people milling about below could see a miracle...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question at the crux, I believe, is one that has bothered theologians for millennia. </p>
<p>Do you &#8211; does the game designer, does the game player &#8211; believe that God has knowledge and control of particulars.  I think a passage in the Bible goes something like, &#8216;God knows when a single hair on your head moves&#8217;. </p>
<p>If someone works with that as part of their core beliefs, then they must surely believe that God plays a role when a Hail Mary pass is thrown. God can surely give an athlete the strength, the clarity of purpose and mental fortitude for a moment, i.e., inspire the athlete.</p>
<p>And let&#8217;s not forget the name Hail Mary has some religious connotations. </p>
<p>Anyway, my point is this.  For Christian game designer designing Christian games, to incorporate doubt and crises of faith, would be seen as yielding to temptation.</p>
<p>In conjunction, let&#8217;s not forget what Jesus&#8217; response was when Satan tried to tempt him a second time by suggesting that Jesus throw himself off the temple so the people milling about below could see a miracle&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: joshg</title>
		<link>http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-147</link>
		<dc:creator>joshg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 01:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-147</guid>
		<description>No problem.  I do remember reading that article back when it came out.  I thought it was an interesting contribution as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No problem.  I do remember reading that article back when it came out.  I thought it was an interesting contribution as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Khurram Ahmed</title>
		<link>http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-145</link>
		<dc:creator>Khurram Ahmed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 00:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithgames.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/the-escapist-on-faith-and-philosophy-in-games/#comment-145</guid>
		<description>www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/29/19

You might be interested. If not, sorry for plugging myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/29/19" rel="nofollow">http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/29/19</a></p>
<p>You might be interested. If not, sorry for plugging myself.</p>
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